Q. Good morning, Ms. Lewinsky.
A. LEWINSKY. Good morning. As we did with your earlier grand jury testimony, my job is to advise you of your rights and obligations here at the beginning.
First off, you have a right under the Fifth Amendment to refuse to answer any questions that may tend to incriminate you. In this case, that right is qualified by the fact that you've signed an agreement to provide truthful testimony in connection with our investigation. Do you understand that?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes, I do.
Q. In addition, you have the right to have counsel present outside the grand jury to answer any questions that you may have. Do you have counsel outside?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes, I do.
Q. Who is that?
A. LEWINSKY. Preston Burton.
Q. And you understand that if you'd like to speak to your counsel, all you have to do is say "Could I take a break and speak with my counsel?"
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. All right. You also in addition to those two rights, you have an obligation and that obligation is to tell the truth. That obligation is imposed on you because you have been put under oath and also because in connection with your agreement you're required to tell the truth. Do you understand that?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes, I do.
Q. What I have placed in front of you is what is marked as ML-7. This is a chart that you have is earlier testified about of contacts between yourself and the President.
As I indicated to you informally beforehand, this grand jury session today is for you to answer questions from the grand jurors.
And so without any further ado, I will ask the grand jurors if they have any questions of Ms. Lewinsky.
A JUROR I think I'm going to start out.
Q Okay.
Q. JUROR Ms. Lewinsky, in your testimony when you were with us on the 6th, you mentioned some of the steps that you took to maintain secrecy regarding your relationship: that you would bring papers or held have papers or either you would accidentally bump into each other in the hallway; you always used Betty as the excuse for you to be waved in; and on many occasions you would go in one door and out of the other door.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR: Are there any other methods you used that I've missed? That you used to maintain your secrecy?
A. LEWINSKY. Hmm. I need to think about that for a minute.
Q. JUROR: And the second part to that question is were these ways to maintain your secrecy your idea or were they recommended to you by anyone?
A. LEWINSKY. I can answer the second part first.
Q. JUROR: Okay.
A. LEWINSKY. If that's okay.
Q. JUROR: That's fine.
A. LEWINSKY. Some of them were my idea. Some of them were things that I had discussed with the President. I think it was a mutual understanding between us that obviously we'd both try to be careful.
Q. JUROR: Do you recall at all specifically which ones he may have recommended to you as an idea on maintaining the secrecy?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes and no. The issue of Betty being the cover story for when I came to the White House, it became my understanding I think most clearly from the fact that I couldn't come to see him after the election until unless Betty was there to clear me in and that one time when I asked him why, he said because if someone comes to see him, there's a list circulated among the staff members and then everyone would be questioning why I was there to see him. So --
Q. MR. EMICK: Let me try to ask some follow-ups in response to your question. Were there ever any discussions between you and the President about what should be done with letters that you -- letters or notes that you had sent to him? That is to say, is for example, did you ever write on the bottom of any letters what to do with those letters?
A. LEWINSKY. It was my understanding that obviously he would throw them away or, if he decided to keep them, which I didn't think he did, he would put them somewhere safe. I think what you're referring to is on the bottom once of a sort of joke memo that I sent to him I in a joking manner reminded him to throw the letter away, that it wasn't -- you know, that was a joke. So --
Q. What about whether on your caller ID on your telephone the word POTUS would appear and whether anything was done in order to make sure that POTUS did not appear on your telephone?
A. LEWINSKY. My caller ID at work; it would -- when the President called from the Oval Office, it would say POTUS and when he'd call from the residence, it was an asterisk. And I told him that. I didn't know if he knew that it said POTUS when he called from the office, and I assumed he didn't, because otherwise that would be sort of silly.
So I informed him of that and then one time he called me from the residence and he -- called on a hard line -- I don't know. I shouldn't say "hard line" because I know that has some different terminology to it, but he called on a line that had a phone number attached to it and so when he called, he said, "Oh, did it ring up, you know, phone number? It didn't say my name, did it?"
And so it was -- that was something that I was concerned about.
Q. Did he ever express to you a reluctance to leave messages on your telephone voice message system?
A. LEWINSKY. At home?
Q. Yes.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. All right. Tell us about that.
A. LEWINSKY. One time in a conversation he just said he didn't like to leave messages.
Q. Okay. What about the times that you would visit him? Were those times selected in a way so that there weren't people around or that certain people weren't around?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. Okay. Would you tell us about that?
A. LEWINSKY. There were obviously people at the White House who didn't like me and wouldn't be understanding of why I was coming to see the President or accepting of that and so there was always sort of an effort made that either on the weekends -- when I was working in the White House he told me that it was usually quiet on the weekends and I knew that to be true. And after I left the White House it was always when there weren't going to be a lot of people around.
Q. And what about particular individual people? Would there be particular individual people who would be -- staffers in the oval area that you would try to avoid in order to help conceal the relationship?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. Nancy Hernreich, Stephen Goodin, Evelyn Lieberman. Pretty much anybody on the first floor of the West Wing.
Q. How did all these people come to not like you so much? What were you doing? Were you breaking the rules of the White House? What were you doing to draw their attention to not liking you so much? Before the relationship. From the time you got there all the way up to the time what I'm saying is what did you do to deserve for them not to like you?
A. LEWINSKY. Before the relationship started?
Q. JUROR Yes. What did you do from --
A. LEWINSKY. I don't think there was anything I did before the relationship started that -- the relationship started in November of 1995. I had only been at the White House as an intern in the Old Executive Office Building for -- for a few months, so most of my tenure at the White House I was having a relationship with the President.
I think that the President seemed to pay attention to me and I paid attention to him and I think people were wary of his weaknesses, maybe, and thought -- in my opinion, I mean, this is -- I think that people -- they didn't want to look at him and think that he could be responsible for anything, so it had to all be my fault, that I was -- I was stalking him or I was making advances towards him.
You know, as they've said, I wore inappropriate clothes, which is absolutely not true. I'm not really sure.
Q. JUROR But you do admit a lot of the places that you weren't supposed to be you were always found. You do admit that there were things that you were doing, in order to see him that they were feeling that was going against the rules of the White House?
A. LEWINSKY. Uh
Q. JUROR You know, places that you were -- that you weren't supposed to be and hallways that you weren't supposed to be, you were seen in those places?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes and no. There really weren't any of these staffers who saw me in the places that I wasn't supposed to be. And that was part of the effort to conceal the relationship. So does that make sense?
I mean, when I was in the Oval Office with the President, no one else knew except for the Secret Service, no one else knew that I went in there. So for them to know -- for them to be disliking me for that reason, I don't think that they were really -- I don't know if they were aware of is that or not.
I did make an effort, I think, to try to have interactions with the President and I think that was probably disturbing to them. I know that if the President was in the hall and he was talking to people and I passed by, he'd stop talking and say hi to me. I'm not really sure.
Q. JUROR Just a follow-up to that.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR If they didn't see you, well, how did they know?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't know what they knew. I -- you know, I -- I'm not sure -- I --
Q. JUROR: Because if you said you made an effort to hide yourself, you know, so you wouldn't see them, the Secret Service are the ones that saw you --
A. LEWINSKY. Mm-hmm.
Q. JUROR: Okay. So, I mean, how would they -- how did they know that you were there, you know, to want to keep you away from being there?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't know. Maybe -- I -- I mean, I've heard reported in the newspapers and on TV that the Secret Service, someone said something to Evelyn Lieberman and I had had an -- I don't know if I went over this the last time I was here, I had had a real negative interaction with Nancy Hernreich early on in my tenure at the White House and so --
I think there was also -- I'm a friendly person and -- and I didn't know it was a crime in Washington for people -- for you to want people to like you and so I was friendly. And I guess I wasn't supposed to be.
Q. JUROR: So that interaction that you had with Evelyn Lieberman was when she was telling you what?
A. LEWINSKY. She stopped me in the hall and she asked me where I worked, in which office I worked, and I told her Legislative Affairs in the East Wing.
And she said, "You're always trafficking up this area." You know, "You're not supposed to be here. Interns aren't allowed to go past the Oval Office."
And she -- she really startled me and I walked away and I went down to the bathroom and I was crying because -- I mean, when -- you know, when an older woman sort of chastises you like that, it's upsetting.
And then I thought about what she said and I realized that, well, I wasn't an intern any more. I was working there. And I kind of believe in clear communication, so I went back to Evelyn Lieberman, to Ms. Lieberman, and I -- I said, "You know, I just wanted to clarify with you that I work here, I'm not an intern. So, you know, I am allowed to go past the Oval Office." I don't think I said that, but I had a blue pass.
And she looked at me and said, "They hired you?" And I was startled and then she said, "Oh, well, I think I mistook you for someone else or some other girl with dark hair who keeps trafficking up the area." And ever since then -- and that was maybe in December or January of '95 or '96. So --
Q. JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, were you ever reprimanded or chastised by your immediate supervisor in Legislative Affairs for trafficking up the area or being where you weren't supposed to be or being away from your desk too much? Anything like that?
A. LEWINSKY. Being away from my desk had been mentioned to me, but trafficking up the area and being where I'm not supposed to be, no.
I -- the -- I had a view of -- and this is sort of my view with work is that you get a lot more done and people are a lot more willing to help you when you have a personal interaction with them. And so the person who held the job before me would fax the drafts of his letters to the staff secretary's office and then at some point during the day when someone got the draft they would make the changes and then fax it back.
And I found it to be much more effective to take things over to the staff secretary's office and interact with the person -- I can't remember her name -- Helen -- to interact with Helen and have Helen edit the letters right then and there and then I could go back and to me it was a faster process.
So there was also -- you know, I also wanted to try to see the President. So, I mean, I did make efforts to try to see him in the hall or something like that because --
Q. JUROR: So the route to the staff person's office was a route that you could still veer off and see the President?
A. LEWINSKY. No. It -- it wasn't necessarily in front of the Oval Office or anything. There were -- we also had -- let me see if I can explain this. I'm sure you guys know by now that the West Wing is three stories. There's the basement, the first floor and the second floor.
Legislative Affairs has an office on the second floor of the West Wing. There are two ways to get to that office -- or three ways, I guess. There's the West Wing, you can cut across the West Wing lobby, which is where people coming to visit someone in the White House sit. There's going the back way, which you pass the Oval Office, but the door's always closed when the President's in there. And then you can go all the way down the stairs and all the way around and then all the way up two flights of stairs.
When I first started working there, it didn't seem appropriate to walk through the West -- to me, it didn't seem appropriate to walk through the West Wing lobby with papers when there were people who were visitors coming to sit and wait. I just -- I didn't think that was appropriate during the business time.
So I went the other way, behind -- which went past the Oval oOffice, not knowing that -- I guess you're not supposed to do that. It seemed silly. The door's closed and it's locked. And there wasn't this intention to see the President that way. So, am I -- did I answer your question?
Q. JUROR Yes.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay. I'm sorry.
Q. EMMICK: You know, one thing I might do is circle back to try to pick up some more concealment methods.
A. LEWINSKY. JUROR: Okay.
Q. EMMICK: Because you asked the question are there any other methods.
A. LEWINSKY. JUROR: Yes.
Q. EMMICK: And I can ask a few more questions that might direct us in that area.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay
Q. EMMICK: For example, you have indicated earlier that it was Betty Currie who waved you in all the times during 1997 that you saw the President. Did you ever talk with the President about whether he could wave you in instead or whether it would be a good idea for him to wave you in personally?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. I think that that's what I mentioned earlier.
Q. Oh, okay.
A. LEWINSKY. That he and I had discussed it and he said he couldn't do that because then it would be on a list.
Q. Okay. What about -- you had mentioned that you took a different route into the Oval Office than you would take out of the Oval Office. In addition, did you ever take routes to get to the Oval Office that seemed calculated to avoid certain Secret Service or White House personnel?
A. LEWINSKY. Not Secret Service, but I liked or I preferred to sort of meet up with him and then we'd walk in together. And I preferred to go in through the Rose Garden because then I wasn't going -- I wasn't risking the possibility of running into someone in the hall right outside the Oval Office.
Q. So, what about the routes that Betty would walk you in from the gates?
A. LEWINSKY. Oh. When -- there were certain Secret Service officers who were friendly with Debi Schiff who Betty wanted to try to avoid because I guess they chatted with Debi Schiff a lot and there's a whole long story with Debi Schiff, so --
Q. And would that be another way that you would help conceal your meetings with the President?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
We only did that, I think, twice. And the first time, it really was an accident. And so then the next time that we did that, I said you know, before -- he would call me in my office before I would come see him and we'd figure out what we were going to do.
And I think I -- I know I suggested to him, I said: "I really like that because then it's just easier, it seems." And also, I -- for me personally, I didn't -- I didn't always want to be the one that was being seen going in. Does that make sense?
So that I wasn't always bringing in the papers and it was me going to him, that in this instance if someone saw it, being the Secret Service, he invited me. So -- for me, that just made me feel better.
Q. EMICK: All right. I have a number of other questions about these alternative methods of concealment. Let me ask you this. I think you've testified earlier that most of the sexual contact that you had with the President tended to occur in the hallway, rather than in the study, although sometimes it was in the study itself.
Did that have anything to do with whether or not it would be easier to see you in the study as opposed to the hallway?
A. LEWINSKY. I think so, but I don't specifically -- I don't specifically remember discussing that with the President, but there were circumstances that that sort of was obvious to me.
Q. And would that include the fact that windows in the study tended to be uncurtained?
A. LEWINSKY. Just that, windows. Yes.
Q. Right. Yes, there were windows there.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. And so you might be seen there.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. EMMICK: All right.
Q. BY MS. IMMERGUT: In that regard, you also mentioned that you would move from the oval area or that sometimes you'd start in the Oval Office and then you'd move towards the hallway. Did the President ever initiate that move?
A. LEWINSKY. I think we both did. I mean, it just depended on the day. It wasn't --
Q. Was it understood that you wouldn't actually have a sexual encounter in the Oval office?
A. LEWINSKY. I'm sure it was understood. I -- I -- I wouldn't have done that. I mean -- so -- I'm sure he wouldn't have done that.
Q. BY MR. EMMICK: Are there windows all around the Oval Office?
A. LEWINSKY. There are windows all around and it just I know this may sound silly, but it wouldn't be appropriate. You know.
Q. What about any discussions with the President about not acknowledging one another at parties or photographs, for example?
A. LEWINSKY. He called me in my office the day of Pat Griffin's going away party and had asked me if I was going to go. I said yes and he said, "Well, maybe we can get together after that."
And I told him I didn't think that was a good idea, that people were going to be watching. I was paranoid anyway and -- so I said, "I think it's a good idea if we just sort of ignore each other at the party and don't really say anything." And that's what we did.
Q. And what about with respect to a photograph that was taken at the party and whether --
A. LEWINSKY. I mean, we didn't discuss this. I didn't know there was going to be a picture taken. But I made an effort to stand on the -- I was the last person sort of on the outside of this picture so that -- I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to get close to the President, I was trying to -- whatever it was.
Q. So in that case, that would be a concealment effort, but not one that the President and you had collaborated on.
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. All right. What about an occasion when the President suggested that the two you might attend a movie and sort of bump into each other outside the movie? Tell us about that discussion.
A. LEWINSKY. He told me he was going to watch a movie with some friends of his and that if I wanted to I could bump into him in the hall outside and then he'd invite me into the movie.
And I asked him if -- I think he said there were some friends and maybe some of his staff or I asked him if some of his staff was going to be there.
And he said yes and I don't remember who he said was going to be there, but I said I didn't think that was a good idea.
Q. And why would you have to make prior arrangements for you to bump into each other rather than having sort of a -- you know, walk down the hall together to the movie?
A. LEWINSKY. Well, I --
Q. I know it's kind of obvious.
A. LEWINSKY. For obvious reasons, I guess, because it wouldn't be appropriate. It -- people would -- people would wonder what was going on.
Q. Right. Right. Okay. What about the fact that you made -- that you sent gifts and notes through Betty rather than directly to the President?
Was that something that was done in order to make it less obvious that the notes were actually to the President?
A. LEWINSKY. Well, yes and no. You really -- if you send something directly to the President, if you send a gift to the President, if I sent something right now, well, I don't know, right now, but before this, it -- it -- it goes to the gift unit.
Q. Right.
A. LEWINSKY. And so I knew that Betty was the way -- I think that that's -- Walter Kaye would, you know, go through Betty, I think. And that's --
Q. So it's yes and no, is the answer to that.
A. LEWINSKY. You can't -- I mean, you can't send a courier thing to the President, you know, a courier to President Clinton, so --
Q. JUROR: I have a question to follow up on that. When you would send gifts and notes and what have you to Betty, as you had testified, sometimes you'd have a funny card in there, sometimes it would be something sentimental.
Did you ever give Betty license to read any of them because you thought, "Hey, take a look at this, tell me what you think," any of the cards or notes or anything?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't think so. Maybe I told her about a funny card or something. Not that I really remember. I don't -- I think especially if it were something that was ultra-sensitive, I don't -- you know, I don't.
Q. JUROR: Yes. That would probably be sealed.
A. LEWINSKY. Exactly.
Q. JUROR: But for any of the other little --
A. LEWINSKY. Might have been the jokes. Sometimes I would put together jokes I got on the Internet or e-mail jokes that I put together for him because, you know, everyone needs to laugh, so -- I think maybe -- maybe there was a time that I said, "Oh, you should look at these jokes, they're really funny."
Q. JUROR: Okay.
Q. MR. EMMICK: Other questions? Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, did you ever discuss with the President whether you should delete documents from your hard drive, either at the office or at home?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. JUROR: Nothing like that?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. JUROR: Did you ever discuss with the President whether you should deny the relationship if you were asked about it?
A. LEWINSKY. I think I always offered that.
Q. JUROR. In discussions with the President?
A. LEWINSKY. In discussions -- I told him I would always -- I would always deny it, I would always protect him.
Q. JUROR. And what did he say when you said that? What kind of response did you receive?
A. LEWINSKY. I said that often. I -- in my head, I'm seeing him smile and I'm hearing him saying 'That's good, or -- something affirmative. You know. Not -- not 'Don't deny it.'
Q. JUROR. Thank you.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. BY MS. IMMERGUT: Ms. Lewinsky, with respect to the weekend visits, did the President ever initiate that idea or say anything about it's good if you come on the weekends?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. The -- I don't remember if it was the Wednesday or the Friday when the relationship first started, he said to me at some point, you know, You can come see me on the weekends. I'm usually around on the weekends. So --
Q. And did you understand what that meant?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. To me, it meant there aren't as many people around on the weekends, so .
Q. JUROR. Ms. Lewinsky, when you -- now, this is a different kind of subject. When you first made the determination that you were moving to New York and you wanted to explore the possibilities of a job in private industry, can you recall how you first got the recommendation about Vernon Jordan's assistance in this endeavor?
A. LEWINSKY. I can't. I know that it was -- what I don't remember was if it was my idea or Linda's idea. And I know that that came up in discussions with her, I believe, before I discussed it with the President. I know that I suggested to the President or I -- I didn't suggest, I asked the President if Mr. Jordan might be able to assist me.
Q. JUROR. To go back from the job search to what we were talking about before, I seem to recall, and I may be mistaken, when you were here before you said something about Tim Keating when you were fired, said something to you like maybe you can come back after the election.
A. LEWINSKY. Mm-hMm.
Q. JUROR. And I wanted to just hear sort of a fuller explanation about that. Was it your understanding at the time that Tim Keating was sort of -- that he understood and was telling you that you were fired because of an appearance problem around the time of the election?
A. LEWINSKY. Not at all.
Q. JUROR. No?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. JUROR. The other question I have, and I apologize, it's a little bit sensitive, but did you and the President in sort of discussing cover stories and, you know, how -- you know, your desire to protect him from sort of what's going on now, did you ever talk about sort of, you know, that you weren't really having sex?
I mean, you said that he made this comment to you about not having -- you know, that certain actions have consequences at his age.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR. Was there ever sort of an understanding that, well, oral sex isn't really sex? Or did you talk about that?
A. LEWINSKY. We didn't talk about it. Something that I thought on my own was one of the reasons that it -- at first that he didn't want to -- that he wouldn't let everything come to completion in terms of oral-sex was I thought that that sort of had to do with maybe that was his way of being able to feel okay about it, his way of being able to justify it or rationalize it that, well --
Q. JUROR. But you never discussed that.
A. LEWINSKY. No.
MR. EMMICK. Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR. Ms. Lewinsky, getting back to -- I think you have a copy there of contacts between the President and Monica?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR: After you left the White House, it seems as if you attended a number of public functions where you came in contact with him. Was that by chance? Was that something you wanted to do? was it a way to see him? Was it something that he suggested? Could you just tell us a little about that?
A. LEWINSKY. Sure. No. Those were all ways for me to get a chance to see him. I'm an insecure person and so I think -- and I was insecure about the relationship at times and thought that he would come to forget me easily and if I hadn't heard from him -- especially after I left the White House, it was -- it was very difficult for me and I always liked to see him and it -- and usually when I'd see him, it would kind of prompt him to call me. So I made an effort. I would go early and stand in the front so I could see him, blah, blah, blah.
Q. BY MR. EMMICK: Let me ask a follow-up question to that because I think it may have been in about October of `96 when you had a telephone conversation with him just prior to you going to Billy Shaddock to get a photograph.
A. LEWINSKY. Right.
Q. During the conversation before, did you and the President have any discussion about your dropping by and seeing him at a public departure?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. All right. Would you tell us about that?
A. LEWINSKY. Let's see. I spoke with him -- I think it was October 22nd, and then I saw him at an event October 23rd and he called that night and I had mentioned to him on -- I think it was a Tuesday, the first phone conversation, that I was going to be at the White House on Thursday.
And when he called me Wednesday night, he said -- I was upset with him and so then he said, you know, "Don't be mad. Don't be mad." You know. "Are you coming tomorrow?"
And I said yes.
So he said, "Well, why don't you stop by Betty's office, stop by to see Betty and then maybe you can come see me for a few minutes before I leave." So --
Q. Okay. All right. The reason I was asking that as a follow-up is that's sort of a prearranged semi-public occasion for the two of you to see each other.
A. LEWINSKY. Right. I don't -- I don't know necessarily that I was going to go to the departure.
Q. I see.
A. LEWINSKY. But that was maybe kind of a cover story.
Q. I understand.
A. LEWINSKY. Or I'm not -- I know he had a departure and I know that I was going to see him for a few minutes before the departure because I thought -- I remember thinking that I might get to kiss him, so --
Q. MR. EMMICK: All right.
Q. JUROR: Now to follow up on your follow-up of my question --
Q. MR. EMMICK: Yes.
Q. JUROR: Did you get to see him that day?
A. LEWINSKY. No, I didn't.
Q. JUROR: Okay. Could you tell us a little about that?
A. LEWINSKY. Sure. I -- the short of it is that I didn't end up seeing him because Evelyn Lieberman was hanging around and left with him that day.
Q. JUROR: She was someplace where she didn't belong.
A. LEWINSKY. Right. So Betty had -- I was waiting in the West Wing lobby with Billy, actually, after we had gone to look at the photos and Betty finally came out and it was really just as he was walking to the helicopter and she took me to se it but she said that -- and it was at that point when she sort of confirmed for me that Evelyn didn't like me. So that --
Q. JUROR: The contacts with the President, on page 5, for the 18th of August .
A. LEWINSKY. I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
Q. MR. EMMICK: Page 5
Q. JUROR: Okay. Page 5, 18th of August, it says "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact."
Q. JUROR. I couldn't hear her.
Q. MR. EMMICK. Okay. Let me repeat it. There is a reference on page 5 to August 18th of 196, a Sunday, "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact." Your question about that was?
A. LEWINSKY. What does that mean?
Q. MR. EMMICK. What does that mean?
A. LEWINSKY. It's stupid. There was a cocktail reception for his -- he had this big 50th birthday party at Radio City Music Hall and there was a cocktail reception and at the -- when he came to do the rope line and he -- after he greeted me and talked to me, he was talking to a whole bunch of people in and around my area and I had -- can I stand up and show you?
Q. MR. EMMICK: Sure. Sure.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay. If this is the rope line and here are all the people and the President's standing here, as he started to talk to other people, I had my back to him and I just kind of put -- put my hand behind me and touched him.
Q. MS. IMMERGUT. Touched him in the crotch area?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR. I didn't hear that.
Q. MS. IMMERGUT: Touched him in the crotch area.
Q. JUROR. Oh.
Q. And the response was yes.
Q. UROR. Okay.
Q. JUROR. Did anybody see you?
A. LEWINSKY. What? No. What's the question?
Q. JUROR. Did anybody see you?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. JUROR. But there were people around.
A. LEWINSKY. There were, but it was -- he was talking -- everybody was enamored with him. I'm sure everybody saw from Monday that -- and he was talking to different people and he -- he was always very close to me when -- whenever held do these rope lines and would sort of make a point of talking to me around -- you know, with other -- while other people were there and held usually hold my hand -- you know, sort of shaking hands and just -- would continue to just touch me somewhere. I mean, not intimately, not .
Q. MR. EMMICK. Right. Just to set the scene, are there a lot of people kind of bunched together at the time?
A. LEWINSKY. Oh, they're -- they're -- I mean, if we -- if everybody in the room came and stood in this one small corner, that's -- I mean, that's how crowded it was. So it was and my back was to him and he was, he was holding onto my -- I think he was holding onto one of my arms or something, I had a sleeveless dress on.
Q. So -- So it sounds to me like -- it's almost a situation where there are so many people that you can't really see that kind of --
A. LEWINSKY. Exactly. And it wasn't -- it wasn't a -- it was maybe sort of a grazing over of that area, but it wasn't, it wasn't how you might imagine it if someone described this, from a scene from a movie, It wasn't like that, but it was -- you know. I don't even know if he remembers, so --
Q. Okay.
Q.JUROR. So on this paper we have here with sexual relations, would that qualify as what, contact? Sexual contact? Because if I remember, where's my paper --
A. LEWINSKY. Let me look at the definition.
Q. MR. EMMICK. Sure.
Q.JUROR. Yes. Contact with --
Q. MR. EMMICK: Just to clarify, the witness is looking at Grand Jury Exhibit ML-6.
A. LEWINSKY. I'm not really sure, because I don't think it was to necessarily gratify him or arouse him.
Q. JUROR: What was it for?
A. LEWINSKY. It was just -- I thought it was funny and it was sort of a -- I don't know how to explain it.
Q.JUROR: Contact.
Q. BY MR. EMMICK: Would it be better described as perhaps affectionate or playful?
A. LEWINSKY. Playful, I think. It was just -- playful, not something I'd ever thought I'd have to discuss publicly.
Q. JUROR: While we're on this, I wanted to like finish it up, but I had a couple of questions with regards to the definition.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR: Because I want to be sure in my own mind. At the bottom it says -- it says "Contact means intentional touching, either directly or through clothing."
A. LEWINSKY. Mm-hmm.
Q. JUROR : Out of all of the times you had intimate contact, were there times when the President would touch you either on the breasts or in the genital area directly to the skin or was it always through clothing?
A. LEWINSKY. Directly to the skin. Both.
MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR : I have some questions about the 50th birthday. That's when you gave the President the yellow tie. Is that when you gave the President the yellow tie?
A. LEWINSKY. Not on that date.
Q. JUROR : But just before that.
A. LEWINSKY. But before that. Correct.
Q. JUROR : When it shows on the chart here, it says "Some time before August 16, 1996."
A. LEWINSKY. Correct.
Q. JUROR : And that tie is the same tie that at the end of your appearance here we saw some evidence that the President has worn a number of times this summer.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR : There's been some press accounts about that tie, last night and today.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR : My question to you is have you authorized your attorneys or any other spokesperson through you to discuss that evidence?
A: Gosh. I don't think I've necessarily given a direct authorization.
Q. JUROR : Do you know that they have?
A. LEWINSKY. Do I know if they -- I -- I don't know if they necessarily directly have. I know there have been questions about it. I shouldn't say I know, I'm sure there have been questions about it, but there have been a lot of instances since the beginning of this thing that there's been information that's come out from places where I hadn't expected it and that includes my own -- the people on my team. So I can't -- I don't know.
Q. JUROR : So you don't know whether that information is coming from people that you have discussed it with?
A. LEWINSKY. I think that there -- there probably might have been -- I really -- I -- I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there was confirmation or some of that information came from there.
So -- but I know that also -- I'm sure it was somewhat limited because with my agreement, we're not allowed to talk to the press. We're not supposed to. So -- without is prior approval.
Q. BY MR. EMMICK: So I guess there's --let me just rephrase it. It sounds like you wouldn't be surprised by it, but do you have any direct knowledge that it occurred?
A. LEWINSKY. I know that there have been calls about this tie and I know that -- that I don't think that we've been 100 percent silent about that. So -- I don't -- I mean -- I know that we didn't cause this story to come out or I don't believe that we did. So --
Q. JUROR : Ms. Lewinsky, it says on the chart that you received a thank you note saying that the tie is really beautiful.
A. LEWINSKY. Mm-hmm.
Q. JUROR : And that was in the President's handwriting?
A. LEWINSKY. It's a typed letter and then he hand signed the letter and then "The tie is really beautiful" is handwritten.
Q. JUROR : Did you ever discuss the tie with him in person or was it just a note?
A. LEWINSKY. No, we discussed it a lot on the phone.
Q. JUROR : And did he like the tie?
A. LEWINSKY. Mm-hmm.
Q. JUROR : Thank you.
A. LEWINSKY. He called me the first day he wore it. The first time he wore it.
Q. JUROR : All right. Thank you.
Q. JUROR : I have another question.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR : On the day you were here testifying, there was a report on the TV --
A. LEWINSKY. Right.
Q. JUROR : The President in the Rose Garden wearing that tie. Did you see that?
A. LEWINSKY. That evening I did.
Q. JUROR : When you saw him with the tie, what did that say to you?
A. LEWINSKY. I understand you had to do what you had to do. That's what it meant to me. I had looked -- because I had seen him wear this tie prior a few other occasions since January, I had looked the day before my testimony because I thought he's just the kind of person that's going to wear this tie to tug on my emotional strings one last time before I go into the grand jury and say this under oath. And he didn't.
And him wearing it the day I came to testify sort of having to know that I wasn't going to see it until the end of the day, to me was just kind of you know, hey, you had to do what you had to do. But --
Q. MR. EMMICK : Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR : Ms. Lewinsky, not to make a big issue about the tie, but is this tie something -- one of the ties that perhaps the President really liked, is a favorite tie?
A. LEWINSKY. I think so because he wore it during the campaign. He wore it once sometimes even twice a week. So I think he liked it a lot.
Q. JUROR : Do you think that he would remember that it's from you? I mean, you know, I don't know, but do you think he would?
A. LEWINSKY. Ties were a big issue with us and I used to bug him all the time on the phone, "Well, when are you going to wear one of my ties?" You know. Or he'd say, "Did you see -- On one occasion, I remember specifically he said, "Did you see I wore your tie the other day?"
There's a pretty big correlation between the times when he would wear one of my ties and we either spoke the night before or that night.
And I used to say to him that "I like it when you wear my ties because then I know I'm close to your heart." So -- literally and figuratively.
Q. JUROR : So you think he would know, then, that that was your tie.
A. LEWINSKY. He should know.
Q. JUROR : Which brings to mind when the first appearance by Nel, when he came testify --
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR : Can you tell me what your thoughts were when you saw the pictures of Nelvis wearing the first tie that you gave the President?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. Actually, you know what? I think my cup's leaking. I'm sorry.
Q. JUROR . Do we have another cup up there?
A. LEWINSKY. Am I allowed to know people's names in here?
Q. MR. EMMICK. The answer to that is no.
A. LEWINSKY. Oh.
Q. I know it seems .
A. LEWINSKY. It's so awkward.
Q. It does seem awkward, but I think it's better if .
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. . the record not have any identifications.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. We didn't intentionally get you a dribble glass.
A. LEWINSKY. Oh, sure. At least it's water and not grape juice. I had two very different thoughts. My first thought was "You jerk. You're trying to show me how little you care about me and how little this meant to you by giving it -- to show me that you gave it to someone else, it meant so little to you now."
And my second thought was that it was sort of some sort of message of some sorts. I don't know what. Because I could see the President kind of saying to Nel, you know, Oh, why don't you -- I could even see him spilling something on Nel on purpose and that morning and then sort of saying, Oh, here, just wear this tie, or something like that. I mean -- he's funny that way. But I thought there was some sort of deliberateness to it.
I don't know that Nel knew that, that that was the tie I gave the President but I don't think it was a coincidence.
Q. Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR . Could one of your thoughts perhaps have been that maybe he just gave him a batch of ties to Nelvis? And maybe he didn't remember?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. JUROR . You really think he would have remembered that first tie?
A. LEWINSKY. I know he did. I mean, we -- we -- that was -- I don't know if you all know this or not, but I worked in a men's necktie store when I was in college for four years and so that was my thing, that was part -- you know, my spending money, a lot of it came from working. And so I love ties. And I, I mean, I can pick out -- you know -- different designers and stuff. And so that was a big thing for me. And then, and I liked to give him ties and I liked to see him wearing them.
Q. JUROR . Do you know how much impact Nel had on what the President wore each day?
A. LEWINSKY. None. To my understanding. Nel was -- My understanding is that Nel's strictly in the -- While he would go to the residence on occasions, that he was usually in the oval area.
Q. MR. EMMICK. There's a question waiting for a bit here. Yes.
Q. JUROR . Ms. Lewinsky, was it the President's nature to give his ties away?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. I knew that -- I knew that he had given Nel ties, his ties in the past. But ties were such a big issue between the President and me that I really couldn't have imagined that he didn,t -- that he didn't know.
Q. JUROR . Other people other than Nel as well, in terms of giving his ties away?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't know.
Q. JUROR . Okay. You just --
A. LEWINSKY. I'm not aware of anyone else, but that doesn't mean there aren't.
Q. JUROR . Okay.
A. LEWINSKY. Right.
Q. JUROR . But you did know about that.
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR . Do you happen to know whether the President had a valet to assist him in his dressing?
A. LEWINSKY. Assist him in his dressing, I don't know. I know that there's a valet.
Q. JUROR : Or like prepare -- Mr. President, this suit goes with this tie, kind of thing?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't know that necessarily, but I have seen -- I had seen evidence enough that he could wear my ties when he wanted to. You know. That if he wanted to, he could go pick it out, so I don't know what his getting dressed routine is.
Q. JUROR : Okay. Thank you.
Q. JUROR : Okay. I have a question that's a bit on the delicate side.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. JUROR : But this is just something that I need to know.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR : Did you and the President ever engage in sexual relations using cigars?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes.
Q. JUROR : Okay.
Q. JUROR : Okay. I'd like to change the subject now.
A. LEWINSKY. Thank you. Just once. Just once.
Q. JUROR : When you last testified, you told us that photographs that you saw of the President and First Lady when they were away that were romantic in nature upset you.
When you had an opportunity to speak with the President about those photographs or any film that was taken during these romantic moments, what did he say? Why they were -- because I'm just curious as to whether or not they were staged because of the legal things that were going on with the President at that time.
A. LEWINSKY. Right. I don't believe we discussed them. I know that that upset me and sort of put me in a bit of a contentious mood when I spoke with him on the 5th. I think it was the 5th of January of this year. And I may have said something in passing about them, but we didn't have a discussion about the pictures.
Q. JUROR : Okay. I was just wondering if there were --
A. LEWINSKY. Sure. No. I wondered, too.
Q. JUROR : Did you think any conversations to him about his wife were inappropriate?
A. LEWINSKY. I don't know if inappropriate is the right word. I tried not to. I -- there were very few discussions and I tended to say things like, "Well, when you're alone," you know, "Call me when you're alone," kind of a thing or, you know, that was how we discussed sort of Mrs. Clinton maybe not being there, was, "Well, I'll be alone on this day. Shall I -- " I think we were careful -- or I was careful, I know I was.
Q. MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?
Q. JUROR : Ms. Lewinsky, I wondered if you ever had any trouble with the Secret Service in trying to be near the President.
A. LEWINSKY. No. The only time that I remember was when I went to see him on the last time in '96, I guess it was April 7th, Easter. And when John Muskett was outside and he said he was going to check with Evelyn if I could go in and then I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I sort of -- I don't remember the exact discussion, but it ended up he ended up not talking to Evelyn and I went in. So --
Q. JUROR : I have a question about Linda Tripp.
A. LEWINSKY. Ugh. Sorry.
Q. JUROR . In your conversations with Ms. Tripp, was her opinion always that she must be truthful or was there a time where your impression was that she was going to provide you with cooperation as far as keeping the secrecy?
A. LEWINSKY. There are two areas of that, I guess. Linda always told me she would always protect me and she would never tell anybody and keep my secret, up until the Paula Jones case came about.
And I had never had any reason to think that she would ever need to discuss this under oath because I was certainly always going to deny it and I couldn't even imagine a situation where that would really come up.
But there was a point in the period prior to my learning about her being subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, most specifically, January 9th, when she led me to believe that she was not going to tell about my relationship and that she was going to be vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey and was just not going to really remember anything else and that was why I agreed to meet with her on Tuesday the 13th.
Q. JUROR : In your conversations with her as you were making your move to move to New York and what have you, did you ever get the sense that she was fishing for offers of benefits or the protection of her job? You know, or where she was hoping that nothing would affect her job or if there was something in it for her?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes and no. When you asked me the question, the first thing that comes to my mind was it may not be directly related to that.
When the Kathleen Willey incident had come out in Newsweek, there was a period after it, Bob Sennett had referred to -- or had made that comment about Linda Tripp and she made some off-comment about if she loses her job she's going to write a tell-all book.
And so I sort of -- that was an instance where I felt I needed to assure her that that wasn't going to happen, she wasn't going to lose her job, and that -- I certainly tried to make assurances. I mean, I -- I promised -- I would have promised her the moon if I could deliver it.
And then also -- then when I spoke with her on the 9th, she talked about that she had spent some time in New York during Christmas and that she -- that someone had suggested to her that she get a job doing public relations in New York.
And that seemed a little bit strange to me, in that that was exactly what I was in the process of doing, and that maybe that was what she thought, that somehow then -- you know, I think I told her, oh, I'd try to help her come to New York and try to help her that way, but I don't know that -- that I ever said anything directly about who would help her.
Q. JUROR : Okay. Thank you.
Q. MR. EMMICK: I'd like to ask a clarifying follow-up because I wasn't sure I understood all of the sort of ins and outs, if you will, of when Linda was going to maintain the secret and when she was going to reveal it. It sounded like prior to the time when Linda got a Paula Jones subpoena, your understanding was she was doing to keep the secret.
A. LEWINSKY. Correct.
Q. And then after she got the Paula Jones subpoena, then she told you that she was going to disclose things and tell the truth. Is that right?
A. LEWINSKY. Yes. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then in this conversation on January 9th, she indicated some willingness to consider keeping the secret a bit longer.
A. LEWINSKY. No, considered that she was going to do that.
Q. That she was going to. All right. That's what I wanted to clarify.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. MR. EMMICK: Thank you.
Q. JUROR : When you said that in your conversations with Linda Tripp you kind of had to exaggerate some things about the President to her, you exaggerated on some of the things you said to her about the President --
A. LEWINSKY. I'm not sure about that. I -- I don't know if exaggerate is the right -- is maybe the word I would choose.
Q. JUROR : Okay.
A. LEWINSKY. But go on. I'm sorry.
Q. JUROR : Well, no, I just used that word.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. JUROR : Exaggerate. You didn't use it, but I couldn't think of the exact words you used.
A. LEWINSKY. Sure.
Q. JUROR . But were you -- why do you think that you had to not tell her some things that did actually happen, true things, in talking to her?
A. LEWINSKY. That really came about in relation to the Paula Jones case. I think that I was -- there were some occasions, one in particular that I remember, when I didn't disclose a contact that I had with the President --
I'm sorry, here I'll scoot over contact that I had with the President to her for some reasons, but after the Paula Jones case, I was scared to death. I mean, I was panicked that she was going to tell. So, I mean, I -- I, you know, along the lines of -- you know, some of the things I said about Mr. Jordan, I said, you know, 00h, the President told me I have to lie,
I don't even remember everything I said, but I know that there were certainly lies at that point, not even exaggerations.
Q. MR. EMMICK. Actually, I was going to ask that clarifying follow-up to that.
Q. FOREPERSON . And then after that, we have to take a break.
Q. MR. EMMICK. And then we'll take a break. The clarifying follow-up was that I had understood that during that January period when you were talking to Linda Tripp you were lying to her on occasion, but I wasn't clear whether those lies related to times that you had been with the President or whether they related to other things generally. Do you understand what my question is?
A. LEWINSKY. No.
Q. What were the nature of the lies that you were telling to Linda Tripp during that January period?
A. LEWINSKY. Oh, gosh. They went from -- I guess a non-disclosure of my meeting with him on the 28th, no my phone call with him on the 5th of January, to -- ranging to things that he said I had to do or told me to do.
I haven't -- I haven't seen transcripts of those days, thank goodness, but I just know that I was -- I was scared to death. And I though any influence that anybody would have, my mother, Mr. Jordan, the President, anybody, would -- I used.
Q. All right.
Q. FOREPERSON . It's break time.
Q. MR. EMMICK. Break time.
Q. FOREPERSON . It's break time. It's break time.
Q. JUROR . I have a follow-up to that as well.
Q. FOREPERSON . Okay. So we're going to take 10 minutes.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. FOREPERSON . And we'll come back.
Q. JUROR . I hope I remember my question.
A. LEWINSKY. Can you guys call me Monica? Are they allowed to call me Monica instead of Ms. Lewinsky? I was just .
Q. FOREPERSON . If you say so.
A. LEWINSKY. Okay.
Q. MR. EMMICK: Sure.
A. LEWINSKY. I'm just 25. Please.
Q. JUROR : But you'll always be Ms. Lewinsky, whether you're 25 or 28 or .
A. LEWINSKY. Not if I get married.
(Witness excused and recalled)
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